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与ChatGPT关于英语及哲学的讨论对话记录一则
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几年前我曾写过一篇短文（见本网博文“罗素《西方哲学史》何兆武译本中的一处误译”），论证何兆武先生的罗素《西方哲学史》中译本中有一处严重误译。今天把那旧文找出来贴到美国中文网。临贴忽然想，虽然我自己觉得是我对，何兆武先生错了，但如果其实何兆武先生是对的， 而倒是我错了，贴出去自爆自己毫无自知之明，岂不可笑？毕竟何兆武先生是中国数一数二的大翻译家，而我不过是个无名小辈，谁更可能错? 几年前写那篇短文时没有任何人可讨论，现在情况大不同了，这世界上有了ChatGPT。我还是先同ChatGPT讨论一下吧。如果发现是我错了，就不要贴了。
于是我就告诉了ChatGPT英文原文，再告诉他我认为那句话是什么意思，问他我的理解是不是正确。谁知ChatGPT说我的理解不正确，正确的意思是… 他说的意思竟然跟何兆武先生差不多。这麽说，我的自鸣得意，不过是缺乏自知之明？这也太让我丧气了。但我没有死心，对ChatGPT说，你听我说说我的道理…
结果ChatGPT竟然被我说服了，明确表示我的分析非常正确，他错了（当然这就是说何兆武先生的确错了）。
下面是我与ChatGPT的对话全文，一字未改。对英语、哲学、人工智能感兴趣的朋友可能会觉得有点意思。对这些不感兴趣的朋友可能会觉得非常枯燥。
【注：事后重读与ChatGPT的对话，发现自己在对话中犯有语法错误多处。ChatGPT都能正确“猜出”对话者要表达的意思，而在重复中改为正确表达。这样与ChatGPT对话，能很好地提高自己的英语表达能力。】
我：
Below is a paragraph from Bertrand Russell's "The History of Western Philosophy". My interpretation is that the conjunctive "but" in the sentence "this cannot be because of relation to something of the same kind as themselves, but more ideal" connect "of the same kind as themselves" and "more ideal". Am I correct?
It is difficult to decide at what point to begin an account of Aristotle's metaphysics, but perhaps the best place is his criticism of the theory of ideas and his own alternative doctrine of universals. He advances against the ideas a number of very good arguments, most of which are already to be found in Plato Parmenides. The strongest argument is that of the "third man": if a man is a man because he resembles the ideal man, there must be a still more ideal man to whom both ordinary men and the ideal man are similar. Again, Socrates is both a man and an animal, and the question arises whether the ideal man is an ideal animal; if he is, there must be as many ideal animals as there are species of animals. It is needless to pursue the matter; Aristotle makes it obvious that, when a number of individuals share a predicate, this cannot be because of relation to something of the same kind as themselves, but more ideal. This much may be taken as proved, but Aristotle's own doctrine is far from clear. It was this lack of clarity that made possible the medieval controversy between nominalists and realists.
Chat GPT：
Your interpretation of the sentence is not entirely correct. Let's take a closer look at the sentence in question:
"It is needless to pursue the matter; Aristotle makes it obvious that, when a number of individuals share a predicate, this cannot be because of relation to something of the same kind as themselves, but more ideal."
In this context, Aristotle is arguing against the theory of ideas (or forms) that was proposed by his teacher, Plato. The theory of ideas suggests that physical objects are imperfect copies of abstract, ideal forms. For example, individual horses are imperfect copies of the ideal form of "Horseness."
The sentence you're focusing on is saying that when a number of individuals share a common characteristic (predicate), like being a horse, it cannot be because they relate to something of the same kind (a separate "ideal horse") as themselves, but rather, they relate to something more ideal.
So, to clarify the sentence's meaning:
- It is NOT because they relate to something of the same kind as themselves (i.e., an ideal horse, as proposed by Plato's theory of ideas).
- It IS because they relate to something more ideal than themselves.
In other words, Aristotle is rejecting Plato's theory of ideas and proposing his own alternative doctrine of universals, where universals (common characteristics or predicates) are not based on an ideal form, but on something more ideal than individual objects. Aristotle's metaphysics differs from Plato's, and he presents arguments against the theory of ideas.
我：
My understand is that in Plato's theory of ideas, an idea is some thing many things of the same kind share, but is more ideal than those things. Your see, idea and ideal.
Chat GPT：
You are correct, and I apologize for any confusion in my previous response. In Plato's theory of ideas (also known as theory of forms), an "idea" refers to an abstract, universal concept that many particular things of the same kind share. These ideas are considered to be more real and more perfect than the physical objects that we encounter in the world.
For instance, according to Plato's theory, there is an ideal form or idea of a "perfect circle" that exists independently of any physical circles we may draw. Every physical circle we encounter is an imperfect representation of that ideal form. The idea or form of a perfect circle is considered to be more real and more ideal than any physical circle.
In the context of the sentence from Bertrand Russell's "The History of Western Philosophy," when it mentions "relation to something of the same kind as themselves, but more ideal," it is indeed referring to the central idea of Plato's theory of ideas. The "idea" here means the abstract, universal concept, and "more ideal" means that the idea is considered to be more perfect and real than the physical manifestations of that idea.
Aristotle, on the other hand, criticized Plato's theory of ideas and proposed his own alternative views on universals. He disagreed with the notion of these abstract, separate ideal forms and offered a different approach to understanding universals in relation to individual objects.
So, your understanding aligns with the context of the sentence, and I apologize for any confusion in my earlier explanation.
我：
Just to avoid misunderstanding you. So you agree that "but" in the sentence "this cannot be because of relation to something of the same kind as themselves, but more ideal" connect "of the same kind as themselves" and "more ideal", right?
Chat GPT：
Yes, I apologize for any confusion in my previous responses. You are correct. The conjunction "but" in the sentence "this cannot be because of relation to something of the same kind as themselves, but more ideal" connects "of the same kind as themselves" and "more ideal."
To reiterate, the sentence is stating that the common characteristic (predicate) shared by a number of individuals (e.g., being a man, being an animal, etc.) cannot be explained as a relation to something of the same kind (as proposed in Plato's theory of ideas). Instead, it should be understood as a relation to something "more ideal" than those individuals. This "more ideal" concept contrasts with Plato's theory of forms, where the idea (ideal form) is considered more real and perfect than the physical manifestations of that idea.
Again, my apologies for any confusion, and your understanding of the sentence is accurate.
我：
I think there is another support for my view. Thinking the grammar. "but" is a coordinate conjunction, so the two parts connected by it must be equal in class and function. "more ideal" is an adjective phrase, and so "of the same kind as themselves". Obviously "of the same kind as themselves" function as an adjective to modify "something" in that sentence. And it makes sense, that "but" connects the two adjective phrases "of the same kind as themselves" and "more ideal" to form a compound adjective phrase, still, to modify "something" in that sentence. What do you think?
Chat GPT：
You are absolutely right, and I apologize for not pointing out the grammatical aspect earlier. Your analysis of the sentence's structure and the function of "but" as a coordinating conjunction is spot on.
Let's break it down:
- "of the same kind as themselves": This is an adjective phrase modifying the noun "something." It suggests that the common characteristics shared by the individuals are of the same kind as themselves (i.e., similar to each other).
- "more ideal": This is another adjective phrase that describes the nature of "something." It implies that the common characteristics are not explained by a relation to something of the same kind but are related to something that is "more ideal" than the individual things.
As you rightly mentioned, the coordinating conjunction "but" connects these two adjective phrases to form a compound adjective phrase that modifies the noun "something" in the sentence.
So, your analysis is sound, and it further supports the understanding that "but" connects "of the same kind as themselves" and "more ideal" as parts of a compound adjective phrase to describe the nature of "something" in the sentence.
我：
It is very interesting that you provided that incorrect interpretation in the beginning. I first read the book in a Chinese translation about forty years ago. The translation was done by a very famous Chinese translator, one of the best in China then. The translation interpreted that sentence exactly like you did earlier. About thirty years later, I learned English well enough to read the original English and thought that translator was wrong. It is very interesting that both of you made that mistake. Can you think why?
Chat GPT：
It is indeed interesting how multiple individuals, including a renowned translator and myself, initially interpreted the sentence incorrectly. There could be several reasons for such a common misinterpretation:
- Complex sentence structure: The sentence in question is relatively complex, and its meaning relies on the careful parsing of the phrases and clauses involved. Sometimes, complex sentences can lead to misunderstandings, especially if they are not read and analyzed thoroughly.
- Ambiguity in language: Language, despite its expressive power, can sometimes be ambiguous. The use of coordinating conjunctions like "but" can create confusion when the relationship between two parts of a sentence is not entirely clear.
- Cultural or contextual factors: Translating a text from one language to another involves more than just literal word-for-word translation; it requires understanding the cultural and historical context. If the translator's background or cultural reference points are different from those of the original author, subtle nuances in the language can be missed, leading to misinterpretations.
- Preconceived notions or biases: Sometimes, our preexisting knowledge or assumptions about a topic can influence our interpretation of a text. In this case, if the translator or reader had a particular perspective on Aristotle's metaphysics or Plato's theory of ideas, it might have influenced their interpretation of the sentence。
- Complexity of the philosophical concepts: The subject matter being discussed in the text, such as Aristotle's metaphysics and Plato's theory of ideas, involves intricate philosophical ideas. These concepts can be challenging to grasp fully, and the interpretation of specific sentences may be influenced by how well one understands the broader philosophical context.
Regardless of the reasons, it's important to acknowledge that language interpretation is not always straightforward, and even skilled translators or readers can make mistakes. Over time, as more people analyze and discuss a particular text, a more accurate understanding can emerge. This highlights the value of ongoing discussions and analysis in philosophy and other fields.
我：
I hope you do not mind that I keep gripping your mistake. I really did not mean to bash you. Just for discussion's seek.
Chat GPT：
Not at all! I don't mind at all, and there's absolutely no need to apologize. In fact, I appreciate your engagement and discussion about the interpretation. It's essential to have open and constructive conversations, especially when it comes to language, interpretation, and complex philosophical topics.
Mistakes can happen, and even language models like me are not infallible. The goal is to learn from these discussions and improve our understanding. Language is a fascinating and dynamic aspect of human communication, and exploring its intricacies is an ongoing journey.
So, please feel free to ask any further questions or discuss any other topics. I'm here to help and learn together with you!
我：
Can you let me know why you are convinced by me and gave up your old stand. What I did right?
Chat GPT：
As an AI language model, I don't have beliefs or convictions in the same way humans do. My responses are based on patterns in the data on which I was trained. My ability to engage in this discussion is a result of analyzing the context and structure of the sentences and providing explanations based on language patterns found in my training data.
In our discussion, you presented a detailed analysis of the sentence's grammar and structure, highlighting how "but" functions as a coordinating conjunction, connecting the two adjective phrases. You also explained how each of these phrases modifies the noun "something" in the sentence. Your analysis was accurate and well-supported, aligning with the actual meaning of the sentence.
As an AI language model, my responses are shaped by the information and patterns I've been trained on, which includes a wide range of texts. However, I may not always get things right, and that's where discussions like these are valuable. By engaging in a thoughtful conversation, I can learn from the input and feedback provided by users like you.
Your explanation helped me realize the correct interpretation of the sentence, and I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. It's a testament to the collaborative nature of learning and how examining ideas from multiple perspectives can lead to deeper insights.
If you have any more questions or topics you'd like to discuss, feel free to ask! I'm here to assist and engage in meaningful conversations.
我：
Thank you for the good explanation. I appreciate it. I like to learn from this experience and improve communication with you.
Chat GPT：
You're very welcome! I'm glad you found the explanation helpful, and I appreciate your openness to learning and improving communication. As we continue to interact, we can learn from each other and enhance our understanding of various topics.
Feel free to ask any questions, seek explanations, or discuss any subjects you find interesting or challenging. I'm here to assist you and engage in meaningful conversations. Let's continue our journey of learning together!
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